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BeLikeIke's avatar

I find alot of this discourse very tiresome. The determinists which make the variations of cases the Nazis were inevitably going to lose (British historians in my experience are the worst about this for reasons I do not understand) and pretend the war was not a close run thing really have to reckon with how much the German army overperforms for the entire war. I'd recommend you look into the work of one Colonel trevor Dupey who is the father of modern quantitative military analysis, McMeekin also makes a very compelling summary case for how bad the Soviet military situation was in by late 1942 in Stalins War, and Kotkin also has some some interesting statements on how close the Soviet industrial base came to collapse in 1941-42 but I forget which book it was in. Glantz who you cite in this has done very good work in correcting how incompetent Soviet high command has been viewed in WW2 but this makes the German accomplishment more impressive not less.

To address the substance of the post even with all the structural problems with the German war economy and retarded blunders Hitler and his commander at made at various points you rightly point out they somehow make it within TWENTY MILES of the Caspian Sea. If the front line froze at high point of Case Blue and they fail to advance any further which is not that hard to imagine not much has to change for Uranus to turn out like Mars, its extremely feasible for Germans to win a war of attrition given the disproportionate Soviet casualties experienced through all stages of the war. By late 1943 the Red Army was extremely dependent on conscripting more or less every man of fighting age in territory they recaptured and even then by the end of the war they were pretty close to literally running out of men of fighting age in sectors non-critical to the war effort. As you mention yourself the Soviet leadership were vary conscious of how close to catastrophe they came.

The primary reason I care about these arguments and Determinism generally is it gives people the impression human decision making and therefore human capitol generally dont really matter that much and that attitude is one of causes of our leadership class becoming noticeably less capable. Say what you will of the FDR admin being completely infiltrated by Communist spies but those people knew how to run complex systems, they could build things, our current leadership class has repeatedly shown they cannot.

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Twerb Jebbins's avatar

Ah, the old "When was Operation Barbarossa cooked?" debate. The answers range from doomed from the start to Kursk. I've heard people argue later than Kursk, but I don't think that case is minimally serious. I tend to agree with you. The Axis never really had a chance, but even if there were one it was long gone when they couldn't take Moscow in 1941. Hitler thought the summer of 1941 was as good as it was ever going to get for their chance of victory. It probably was, but the best chance still wasn't anywhere near good enough.

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