Thanks, good summary. I wonder whether the "incel" phenomenon is new, or something just amplified by the new (dating app, social media, etc.) technology. Or alternatively perhaps whether incels have just become more visible because it's easier to form virtual communities that give voice to their members' pain and frustration. After all, …
Thanks, good summary. I wonder whether the "incel" phenomenon is new, or something just amplified by the new (dating app, social media, etc.) technology. Or alternatively perhaps whether incels have just become more visible because it's easier to form virtual communities that give voice to their members' pain and frustration. After all, as has been pointed out on this very site, most males over the long span of history failed to produce progeny. Doesn't that suggest involuntary celibacy is in some sense the norm for males? (It's also been suggested that monogamy largely righted that imbalance in modern times by making polygyny illegal or taboo.)
Thank you, Nick R... those are thoughtful and interesting comments.
I do think the incel stuff is relatively new. The first incidence of it was the mail order paperback THE PICKUP ARTIST (*I think the authors name was something like MAGIC) and I believe that dates to the later 1980s. It was more focused on how awkward or unsuccessful young men could LEARN (via lessons) how to pick up girls and SCORE (i.e., get sex vs. a relationship or marriage) by learning clever techniques. Even prior to that, was a sort of pathetic MENS RIGHTS movement (very small at the time) whose leader was the VERY dysfunctional Warren Farrell. His whole schtick was to wear skirts (though he was not gay or trans) and demand women be drafted... that sort of thing. He appeared on shows back then like Phil Donahue.
lt never caught on in any big way back then though... so the observation that the internet brought this to fruition (though did not invent it)... has a lot of truth.
Relatively few Incels are literal virgins like the famous Elliot Roger... when I chat with Incels online, most admit they have had sex, girlfriends, many have even married. So the original dateless awkward guy movement MERGED with the Mens Rights Movement (such as it was), layered over with anger about all kinds of stuff.... not merely inability to find dates or sex... but never married men raging about unfair divorce laws (*that I find they have no knowledge or understanding of!) and the whole Asian Mail Order Bride movement (American women are so awful, I am moving to Thailand to get a proper, virginal Tradwife!).
I am not sure HISTORICALLY how few men had offspring... it would be hard to establish, since until very modern times this would have been hard to trace. We can definitely say that in modern times (20th century)... about 1 man in 4 never has children... which lends a lot of both humor and sadness to the frequent incel claim that WOMEN WILL END UP SPINSTERS WITH CATS. In fact, the ones ending up alone are generally men.
How many men actually cannot access SEX? and are literal virgins? I would say very few, but it does happen. I think it is linked to things like Aspergers Syndrome, general autism, ADHD and other conditions that are more common in males than females. Alcoholism, drug addiction, schizophrenia are all more common in men (historically). Go see any of the truly awful homeless camps we have today, where most are mentally ill or substance addicted... I believe estimates are that 90% are single males.
Does the lack of a partner cause dysfunction? or does the dysfunction make pair bonding difficult or impossible? those are things we just do not know. yet.
Monogamy in western culture is very old, so I am not sure we can blame polygamy for causing men not to be able to find partners. After all: are we talking about SEX PARTNERS? that could be prostitutes... casual girlfriends, etc. Or do we mean pair bonding, as in marriage or long term live together situations? In our own polygamous subcultures (like the Yearning For Zion ranch or various Fundie Mormon groups).... a handful of males takeover and marry all the females, and actively kick young men out onto the street. But those discarded men can rejoin the greater society and find partners.
When we talk about true involuntary celibacy... the complete inability to not only marry but have sex... we really should be talking about WOMEN, no? historically if a woman could NOT find a partner, she had a very low status in society... ending up as a virtual servant to her parents or siblings... poor (no possibly of a career or even a job)... and there are no options for women (EVEN TODAY!) to pay for sex with male prostitutes.
Yet there is nothing remotely like a female incel culture. How do you explain that? (It is just a rhetorical question, but I think an interesting one!)
Thanks, good summary. I wonder whether the "incel" phenomenon is new, or something just amplified by the new (dating app, social media, etc.) technology. Or alternatively perhaps whether incels have just become more visible because it's easier to form virtual communities that give voice to their members' pain and frustration. After all, as has been pointed out on this very site, most males over the long span of history failed to produce progeny. Doesn't that suggest involuntary celibacy is in some sense the norm for males? (It's also been suggested that monogamy largely righted that imbalance in modern times by making polygyny illegal or taboo.)
Thank you, Nick R... those are thoughtful and interesting comments.
I do think the incel stuff is relatively new. The first incidence of it was the mail order paperback THE PICKUP ARTIST (*I think the authors name was something like MAGIC) and I believe that dates to the later 1980s. It was more focused on how awkward or unsuccessful young men could LEARN (via lessons) how to pick up girls and SCORE (i.e., get sex vs. a relationship or marriage) by learning clever techniques. Even prior to that, was a sort of pathetic MENS RIGHTS movement (very small at the time) whose leader was the VERY dysfunctional Warren Farrell. His whole schtick was to wear skirts (though he was not gay or trans) and demand women be drafted... that sort of thing. He appeared on shows back then like Phil Donahue.
lt never caught on in any big way back then though... so the observation that the internet brought this to fruition (though did not invent it)... has a lot of truth.
Relatively few Incels are literal virgins like the famous Elliot Roger... when I chat with Incels online, most admit they have had sex, girlfriends, many have even married. So the original dateless awkward guy movement MERGED with the Mens Rights Movement (such as it was), layered over with anger about all kinds of stuff.... not merely inability to find dates or sex... but never married men raging about unfair divorce laws (*that I find they have no knowledge or understanding of!) and the whole Asian Mail Order Bride movement (American women are so awful, I am moving to Thailand to get a proper, virginal Tradwife!).
I am not sure HISTORICALLY how few men had offspring... it would be hard to establish, since until very modern times this would have been hard to trace. We can definitely say that in modern times (20th century)... about 1 man in 4 never has children... which lends a lot of both humor and sadness to the frequent incel claim that WOMEN WILL END UP SPINSTERS WITH CATS. In fact, the ones ending up alone are generally men.
How many men actually cannot access SEX? and are literal virgins? I would say very few, but it does happen. I think it is linked to things like Aspergers Syndrome, general autism, ADHD and other conditions that are more common in males than females. Alcoholism, drug addiction, schizophrenia are all more common in men (historically). Go see any of the truly awful homeless camps we have today, where most are mentally ill or substance addicted... I believe estimates are that 90% are single males.
Does the lack of a partner cause dysfunction? or does the dysfunction make pair bonding difficult or impossible? those are things we just do not know. yet.
Monogamy in western culture is very old, so I am not sure we can blame polygamy for causing men not to be able to find partners. After all: are we talking about SEX PARTNERS? that could be prostitutes... casual girlfriends, etc. Or do we mean pair bonding, as in marriage or long term live together situations? In our own polygamous subcultures (like the Yearning For Zion ranch or various Fundie Mormon groups).... a handful of males takeover and marry all the females, and actively kick young men out onto the street. But those discarded men can rejoin the greater society and find partners.
When we talk about true involuntary celibacy... the complete inability to not only marry but have sex... we really should be talking about WOMEN, no? historically if a woman could NOT find a partner, she had a very low status in society... ending up as a virtual servant to her parents or siblings... poor (no possibly of a career or even a job)... and there are no options for women (EVEN TODAY!) to pay for sex with male prostitutes.
Yet there is nothing remotely like a female incel culture. How do you explain that? (It is just a rhetorical question, but I think an interesting one!)